installing their pully system and started pulling John out. Firemen / search and rescue aren't going to be able to fit down there to get you out. It is the 7th longest cave in the United States and is home to almost half of the world's population of Virginia big-eared bats. What is wrong with you people. As of March 1st, 2019, the channel will is the first ever 100% non-profit, 501(c)3 Youtube channel. ", On August 10, 2016, theJournal described how Diedre Tafoya (age 26) fell 40 feet off a cliff at the top of Sandia Mountain, and died. Here are 46 of those deaths from 2021 many just related to "falls" and others to events described. Cave explorers from Oman have become the first individuals to descend to the bottom of the 367-foot (112 meters) deep "Well of Hell" sinkhole in Yemen, which many local people believe is a genie . Do you need rappelling gear or is it possible and relatively safe to go to the bottom without gear? rope around Johns waist but got stuck himself. Not long before Thanksgiving in 2009, 26-year-old University of Virginia medical student John Jones, his wife Emily, and their 13-month-old daughter flew home to Utah. Caving can be a dangerous activity and an uncomfortable one for those who dislike tight spaces. Gutting IRS Will Help Wealthy Avoid More Taxes | Opinion, Eliminating Income Tax Means More Money for Americans | Opinion. Some of you need live! So,, of course someone went ahead and made a video of their journey through its impossibly tight passages, which is now going viral on Reddit. How is your only thought before doing something like this Hmm, what is the worst that can happen, and how is the answer not enough to convince you to NOT?? to him. When it was first thoroughly explored in the 1970s, IXL Cave was apparently full of beautiful snow-white formations stalactites, stalagmites and cave popcorn as far as the eye (or headlamp) could see. "Watching this as a claustrophobic is more horrifying than any horror film ever," wrote another. Hellhole averages around 47F (8C). 1) Leave a LIKE \u0026 COMMENT on every video! Originally published on YouTube in 2019 by Brandon Gross, the video, titled Claustrophobia Engaged!, shows how Gross is guided into a very narrow cave entrance that appears to have been built into a large rock wall. into a big family of five boys and two girls, he also had 16 nieces and i really want a picture of the budda room/satan face! Hows it going?, Hi Susie, thanks for coming, John said, Nutty Putty is a beginners cave, but there are narrow, dangerous sections where people have required rescue in the past. of course you can be cautious but you can never eliminate 100 % of risks. Toyota. "According to friends, [Trevor] Matuszak lost his footing in a steep portion of Hell's Hole and fell into the canyon." Earlier this year, on May 26, the AP released a story about a different hiker whose body had just been recovered near Alamogordo. The changes from decade to decade partly reflect the different numbers of active cavers, partly changing techniques, and partly improved equipment.[159]. he should be rescued, even dead. The only known entrance to Hellhole is a funnel-shaped pit entrance on the lower slopes of North Fork Mountain. If there was so little room they had to break his shins, wouldnt they also have to break his femurs later? It leads into Lost Johns' Cave and is part of the Three Counties System, an 87-kilometre (54 mi) cave system which spans the borders of Cumbria, Lancashire, and North Yorkshire. Heading there this week. Thus, Hellhole contains about 45% of the world's total population. The following table summarises the major causes of fatality in UK caving by decade. Eds Push has four uncharted passageways at its end, but they are all too small for a human (if he instead pushed into the Scout Eater, it similarly has a small passageway that doesnt lead anywhere). First, when a trail runs next to a big dropoff, you need to think about what you're doing. Body interred in situ, Drowned after falling down flooded surface shaft, The bodies were later interred in the far reaches of cave, 14-year-old boy on an outdoors pursuits course, Body found a year later 100 metres (330ft) in, with no lighting, Abseiled into foul air in disused coal mine, Overcome by foul air in disused slate mine, Date uncertain - body not found for several weeks, This page was last edited on 4 October 2022, at 12:22. Cookie Notice Listing some reasons why, the commenter explains one missed step around the caves 50ft to 60ft drops could mean certain death. The national parks see more deaths from suicides than from avalanches, heat or cold exposure, and wildlife of the rope tied around Johns legs and the other end pulled by the team. "Little Hellhole" is a well known pit deeper in the cave. 81: Fatalities during the 28-year study period, an average of roughly three deaths a year. lawyer found dead in Mexico speaks, Dog trapped in oil-filled well for over a day rescued, O.C. Different parts of the cave are named accordingly The Birth Canal, The Aorta Crawl, The Scout Eater, The Maze. He is dead. To top things off, he had wriggled into a fissure that went nearly straight down, which made him unable to turn back on his own. Derogatory comments actually work education; giving the idea someone is somehow lesser dangerously deludes us to think we are safe as we are unlike them rather than learning from a person pretty much like us, who happened to make fatal mistakes. why he exhaled to go deeper, he thought there would be more space? make contact with him. In the video description, Gross stated that he was "very bad with tight spaces and decided to face my fears.". He was 26 Dont buy a teeth whitening gel before reading these reviews. John had now been trapped upside down for 19 hours. Santa Cruz Hell Hole, UCSC Time in cave 2.5 hours Write Directions. Caving YouTuber Calvin Sanders told the Guardian newspaper earlier this year that he enjoys the impact his videos have on some viewers, one of whom wrote that they were "getting better" at watching the clips. Thus, people assume it has no bottom at all. Thats my issue with stuff like this. The cave was a sort of paradise for the areas native Dolloff Spider. John but had to leave the tragic site with empty hands and heavy hearts. The resulting study, The Epidemiology of Caving Accidents in the United States, was published in the September issue of If this wasnt enough nightmare fuel for you today, read into what happened in 2009 at Nutty Putty Cave in Utah. Plan Your Trip. October 31, 2021 / 8:25 PM / CBS News. But watching his friend squirm feet-first and out of view through a gap barely large enough for her head, the fear in his voice is unmistakable. 24: Fatalities due to falls, which tied as the leading cause of death. canyon. The rescue team quickly brainstormed a plan after a plan. In 2002, after prolonged negotiations with Greer (which in 2000 had proposed in public documents to expand its operations to the north and south of its existing open pit quarry), the USFWS, West Virginia Department of Natural Resources (WV DNR), West Virginia Department of Environmental Protection (WV DEP), caving organizations and local landowners, the Germany Valley Karst Survey (GVKS) was contracted to pursue a survey of the extent of the cave. Pls take him out for Gods sake. Manage Settings But they were making progress getting him out. later, he was known for his good nature, delightful sense of humor, He was almost out. Extending into the earth from the base of an unnamed . On Reddit, the overwhelming response to the video appeared to be "nope". It is known for its very narrow and claustrophobia-inducing passages and steep dropoffs into nothingness, many of which require getting down on your back/stomach and squirming through. A local teen tragically fell to his death Sunday after losing his footing in the White Rock Canyon. hard material and the awkward position made drilling a slow and painful work. It got its official name from the IXL Lime Works mining company, which used to extract mineral resources from the area. 74: Percentage of traumatic injuries caused by caver fall, the number one accident type. Navigate to UCSC. www.Patreon.com/TFIL-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------FOLLOW US ALL ON SOCIAL MEDIA:@TFIL on Instagram \u0026 Twitter for secret updates!ELTON CASTEEIG - http://www.instagram.com/EltonCasteeTwitter - http://twitter.com/EltonCasteYouTube - https://www.youtube.com/eltoncasteeCOREY SCHERERIG - https://www.instagram.com/coreyscherer/Twitter - https://twitter.com/ItsCoreySchererYoutube - https://www.youtube.com/user/ItsCoreySchererCORBIN REINHARDTIG - https://www.instagram.com/corbin_reinhardt/Twitter - https://twitter.com/CorbinReinhardtYoutube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0YMr6Jr_Po3EWYvuinVW4QBRANDON GROSSIG - https://www.instagram.com/brandonwgross/Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4738z_3cmq7Kppo7q8-6ZAJAKE WEBBERIG - https://www.instagram.com/jakewebber9/Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/user/Jakewebber9-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------About TFIL:TFIL is now a 10x Guinness World Record title holding channel that has helped raised over $325,000 for various charities. They Those who have tragically died in the Hell's Hole area are Trevor Matuszak, 19, on July 24, 2017, and David Dickens, 18, on May 7, 2003. Please look at the time stamp on the story to see when it was last updated. We and our partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. We hope to continue to find creative ways to fundraise. At It's supposed to be one of the longest caves in California, over a mile. By this time the U.S. On November 24, 2009, the brothers John and Josh decided to I can not imagine what this guy went through. 83: Percentage of the victims who were male. A video of a California cave system dubbed "Hell Hole" has sparked discussion of Reddit. Finally, the cave is also home to at least four other bat species. The cause of death was foul air building up around him.[7]. A hiker came across the body of Samuel Holiman around 4 p.m. Saturday on a mountain trail north of Hell Creek Road in the Hellhole Canyon Preserve, according to the San Diego Medical Examiner's. At the time of the accident, John was studying to become a pediatric cardiologist, had recently become a father, and his wife was pregnant with their second child. The cave opening is unusual, the water level responds to seismic events around the world, the underground passageways are complex and its depth is unknown. Whatever is down there is unknown but undoubtedly unpleasant. 3.1M views 2 years ago TFIL begins their road trip to Alcatraz with Jake Webber & make a stop at the "Hell Hole" that consists of a cave system with areas smaller than the size of a. Explore some caves! (We really appreciate all the help we can get!) I remember that rope, guess its holding up fine. There are estimated to be about 9,000 individuals in the cave, as against a total world population of about 20,000. Hell Hole is known for its incredibly tight passages, which Brandon agreed to explore in an attempt to face his claustrophobia. The main causes of death have been drowning when cave diving, drowning as the result of flooding or negotiating deep water, injuries incurred from falling from a height, and injuries incurred as the result of rock falls. Located in the middle of an enclosed valley, and having only one entrance, cold air flowing off North Fork Mountain in winter collects in the cave. Did this cave with friends in 1996. An important option, since one foot off the trail might be enough to send you over the edge. A stock photo shows a silhouette of a person at a cave opening. Devils Hole is an oasis within Death Valley unlike any other in the world. Anxious of how much the rock had swallowed John, Josh tried to pull In accordance with USFWS requirements regarding endangered bats, all annual survey activities must be completed within a 16-week window during the summer months. There must be a possibility without harming others. Just BEGS for something horrible to happen. If you even get a minor injury like a broken leg / concussion, good fucking luck. combined.). The only exception to this was the bi-annual bat counts sponsored by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS). This showed that the historically known portions of Hellhole were a mere side passage to a much larger cave system. The commonest cause of fatality in the UK is drowning - accounting for almost half the deaths when cave diving is included, and 40% when diving is excluded. Has anyone been to the bottom of the IXL cave in Santa Cruz more commonly known as "Hell Hole". That would be some comfort if his last thought was that he was going to make it out. Cant get over this topic. The narrow crevice he was trapped in measured 10 by 18 inches. Doctors looking for numbers on caving deaths and accidents found little in the way of scientific studies, so they decided to write their own paper. In the film 27 hours the guy had a chance to survive, bu this man? I cant imagine people actually purposely explore tight spaces like that without having a complete panic attack. to use a rescue rope that passes through a series of climbing cams with one end My brother occasionally does reckless things like this. 24 . The entire team fell backward as the rope suddenly went loose in their hands. I am so heartbroken. Oweynagat, Ireland Ireland has long been the land of fairies and fairy tales. "I had several panic attacks watching this," wrote one user who gained around 2,700 upvotes. This cold air collecting phenomenon is what makes the cave so vulnerable to accidental damage from quarrying activities. Porth yr Ogof, in South Wales, accounts for eleven fatalities, nine of which were the result of people drowning when negotiating the exit pool. At the least, it's good to slow down and be careful. I wanted to understand but couldnt really picture it. impact with a metal carabineer and couldnt continue his rescue efforts, he had Second, hiking poles are always a good idea. In 2000, Greer announced its intention to seek a renewal permit to continue its quarrying operations in Germany Valley and to extend them to the north and south of the existing open pit. My legs are killing me.. and when you start falling over, the pack fights your attempts to stay upright. It's also the home of Halloween. You will be able to bring your friends/family (once Covid guidelines are clear to do so) 50,000 LIKES = Releasing the FULL List of Locations for the next 25 Weeks-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Support the channel via PATREON! You risk your life just by walking outside. coincidence that three of the five incidents I listed involved teenagers, but older people die from hiking falls as well. Class it up. What would have happened if they have had broken his legs?So they have could pull him out. In June 2015, official reporting on the total length of Hellhole was updated to 42 miles (68km) and depth to 737 feet (225m). In their view, it was highly likely that quarry operations, conducted with a lack of knowledge regarding the cave's complete extent, would in time penetrate some portion of the cave. Small, agile, and quick, no action possible, no back just more diving into his death. It surely is an honorable move to advance your condolence to family and friends but it does not make you a monster if you instead just underscore the lessons that can be learned from his light-headed actions. In a feat of epic caving over the next three years (20022005), members of the GVKS surveyed more than 12 miles (19km) of virgin passage, increasing the known length of the cave from 8.5 miles (13.7 kilometers) to 20.3 miles (32.7 kilometers), and established Hellhole as the deepest cave drop in West Virginia265 feet (81 m). His father taught him how to explore caves. Glad to see that you can still get to it. Morgenson, Tunnabora Peak, The Cleaver, Mt. A video showing how two people squeeze into an extremely tight California cave system dubbed "Hell Hole" has caused many Reddit users to say "nope.". The water in Devils Hole is a balmy 92 degrees, making it more comparable to a bath than a dip . 66,789 bats were counted in the survey, a decline of 40% in total bat numbers from 2007. They were both agitated but comforted News of the heartbreaking death has not only pained the community, but also had people questioning the safety of that area. This makes me feel when I read this tragic story as if I were in there too right next to him and the overwhelming impending doom sets in and it is tremendously frightening. he tooks his life, aint that enough? received the message on her rescue pager and rushed to the scene with her Hey you know ive pooped on the enterance right? "According to friends, [Trevor] Matuszak lost his footing in a steep portion of Hell's Hole and fell into the Caveman Hikes! The most famous Hole is in Death Valley, Nevada where a notch in the rock reveals an oasis of ancient groundwater in the otherwise brutally dry desert landscape. wiggling out of the tight passage and rushing to the surface. something happened. Producing short length documentaries alongside various charities from around the world, TFIL will aim to not only raise awareness, but increase the education surrounding the various topics and produce a perpetual revenue source for the charities in which they partner with. The video was posted to the subreddit r/NextF***ingLevel on Thursday where it quickly gained more than 15,000 upvotes and around 2,000 comments in under a day. In 2018, there were up to 4,000 regular cavers in the UK, and about 70,000 people who went on instructor-led courses into caves in the Yorkshire Dales, but there were no fatalities.[1]. Hi, John, my name is Susie. Such an event, it was argued, would have disastrous effects upon the suitability of the cave as an endangered bat species hibernaculum. Hellhole is a hibernaculum site for two endangered and federally protected species of bats. Thanks so much, this was a fun read! This comment has been removed by the author. The situation might May he forever be held in Gods warm embrace. It opens on weekends starting Victoria Day (May 24 long weekend) until Father's Day. It has been sealed ever since. Finding it is part of the thrill and if people can't find it on their own, that's on them. I can think of a lot of activities that carry a risk , racing car drivers, scuba diving etc. The next day, the authorities determined that it was too 36,397 views Jul 23, 2008 91 Dislike Share Save recordonline.com 7.19K subscribers Lt. David Love of the New York State Palisades Park Police shows Times Herald-record reporter Keith Goldberg where. In ten cases the bodies have not been recovered. How tragic. They both said a quick In 2010, the West Virginia Division of Natural Resources entered the cave to document effects of white-nose syndrome on the various species of bats. This can be especially dangerous if it has rained recently before an expedition. Outside's long reads email newsletter features our strongest writing, most ambitious reporting, and award-winning storytelling about the outdoors. Nutty Putty Cave (located in Utah, exact Google Maps location here) was first explored in 1960 and it quickly became famous for its narrow and slippery passageways, twists, turns and squeezes. Here's why: One little slip and you could literally be dead. According to the N.M. State Police, "19-year-old David Morales also i find it ironic that so many people who would never do something so stupid seem to think they know quite a lot about the subject to be so comfortable passing judgment on a man who died tragically. It sounds like they were so close to rescuing him. For more information, please see our (Drowning and vehicle accidents are number one and two. bit more. Meanwhile, John was doing worse he had now been stuck ", "The other times I keep losing the mental battle and have to get out! Are car owners and drivers selfish? Im a skinny dude and Ibarelysqueezed my ribcage through some of those holes.. more likely to hurt or kill you than a bear attack. is what the two friends in the latest viral video must have been thinking when they took on Santa Cruzs Hell Hole Cave. The numbers were not definitive, as the organization relies on rescue groups, law enforcement, and local grottoes to file volunteer reports. They start by saying theyve been to the bottom (Budda Room and Satans Drawer), the bottom-most areas on the cave map. In 1997, a break-through discovery off this area extended the known extent of Hellhole well to the south of its originally known range. Glad you all made it back safely :). This request was filed publicly, as required by the West Virginia Department of Environmental Protection (WV DEP) requirements, and it ignited a furor among Virginia and West Virginia cavers who began petitioning officials and started a letter campaign. After roughly a day of being trapped, he lost consciousness. [citation needed]. These are deaths which obviously had little to do with Covid -- but they logged them that way anyways. Thanks. It includes all verified deaths associated with the exploration of natural caves and disused mines in the modern era (post 1880). Wilderness and Environmental Medicine. What comes across in this story is the effort. Hellhole is also known as IXL. They must be. Sorry for the rant, glad you had fun in the hole! VALLEY CENTER, Calif. The man whose body was found on a remote trail east of Valley Center over the weekend was publicly identified Tuesday as a 57-year-old San Diego resident. rekindle their love for caving and picked Nutty Putty Cave as their next He looked tired, his eyes were red, and his face was dirty, but he but I really, really want to get out.. It looks like rough going from the beginning but things really amp up as our protagonists begin to squirm their way through increasingly tight passageways. But Hellhole was essentially closed to the caving community in 1988, two years after a lease on the land including its entrance was obtained by the Greer Limestone Plant, a part of Greer Industries, Inc. in the nearby town of Riverton. Kind of a cunty comment, no? I have been to the cave 4-5 times at this point and have only made it to the very bottom (end) once. Show some respect to the dead, dummy. Straight when leaving the campus and facing the T intersection. 2021. We can criticize the dead. The team was able to raise the caver from his initial position using ropes, but an anchor in the cave ceiling broke, causing Jones to slip back into place. find John. The way I understand it, he rotated 180 degrees when entering this, also while bending his knees. Im sure many are married with kids. Required fields are marked *. Are they selfish too? available, and Charlton and his team analyzed them. I would never, ever, ever say John deserved to die, but then again I would not do something like this if you paid me a million dollars (and I could REALLY use the money!). "I love to push myself and find my limits in everything that I do. the same time, they also tried drilling away chunks of rock near John, but the The first person to arrive to help, Susan, was a local Awesome guys, thanks. The light cannot penetrate far into the gloom so the bottom can't be seen. Continue with Recommended Cookies, Your information source for everything related to caving. I accept that his legs would hit the roof of the cave when they pulled him out, so they might need to be broken, but I dont understand it. but were of little use as gravity pushed him down. Very intriguing. She arrived sometime around midnight it was now more than three hours passageway that eventually opens up into a larger room. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) said that caves can be "fraught with peril" and that people should never go caving alone, ensure they tell someone who is not going when they expect to be back, and bring the correct equipment including at least three light sources. Alexandra helped launch The Focus in 2020 and developed the site into an expert online news source. They then tried to use a rope-pully system, anchoring the pullies with bolts, drilling the bolts deep in the cave walls. At midnight, November 25, John was pronounced dead. (On more than one occasion the ropes I've found left rigged there have been literally clothesline-grade, not rated for climbing even when new.) Cavers perceived that because the quarry did not wish to lose any further areas of limestone to bat habitat, it effectively began to impede further exploration and, therefore, "knowledge" of the cave's extent. Confidently, John pressed forward, perhaps noticing Hellhole's passages are developed predominantly in a layer of limestone known as the New Market. There is very little hard data out there regarding the epidemiology of injuries and fatalities in caves. Everything changed when the rescuers finally finished 24: Fatalities due to falls, which tied as the leading cause of death. . Entering the cave. Joe Spring [6] Ease Gill Caverns and its associated entrances accounts for ten deaths; Alum Pot and its associated entrances account for six, as does Mossdale Caverns (all from the 1967 incident). John went first: he wriggled free, he drilled a new hole for the pulley and crawled out of the cave, Omg what a sad story. May symbolise way to heaven after death, clinical death, escape, exit, freedom, psychedelic vision or some frame from . Any injury that would seem minor above ground, such as a broken limb or concussion, could spell death for a caver, as theyre virtually unreachable. Firemen or search and rescue arent going to be able to fit down there to get you out, they explain. The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. Let's check out the legends of bottomless holes. Snow melt or rain percolates through the ground, entering an aquifer, and 10,000 years later, 1 molecule of water arrives. Go on YouTube and search "White Moon Cave Santa Cruz Mountains". But it might stick to some kids heads when they go out on similar adventures. "Bottomless pit" of Mammoth cave, Kentucky. will forever remain the final resting place for John Edwards Jones. Matuszak was an adventurous young man who loved the outdoors and Dickens was an avid hiker who had planned to climb the Grand Tetons with his father the summer he died. His legs bent a certain way to get in, why couldnt they bend that way again to get out? His death is a sobering reminder of how dangerous caving can be and why we should follow safe caving practices at all times when spelunking. At one point, they brought a two-way cable radio into the In 1996 one of the deepest sections of the cave was explored at over 400 feet (120m) below the entrance elevation. The group had received permission to enter the cave from Timpanogos Grotto, a local chapter of the National Speleological Society that weighed applications based on experience. Im an experienced rock climber and have done some dangerous stuff in my life, including other caving and spelunking, and Hell Hole is theonly placeI wouldnever ever evergo back to, even if someone paid me.. What makes Hell Hole Cave so dangerous is its claustrophobia-inducing tight squeezes, some of which can be the size of a basketball (about 10in or 25cm in diameter) and its sheer drops into pitch black nothingness. Your email address will not be published. That word "known" proved to be the bone of contention. Bonus footage, podcasts, exclusive livestreams, personalized videos \u0026 more! second chance body armor level 3a; notevil search engine. Why did this thing broke and he slipped deeper? If you cant climb out yourself, you are stuck. With greater freedom of expression comes self-responsibility; its not an entitlement to carelessly lob words like grenades from hidden behind a keyboard, & feel outraged if were called out on it. Absolutely cant imagine what this poor guy went thru. The following table summarises the major causes of fatality in UK caving by cause and by area. The map itself was scary enough. most of his spelunking was done when he was a kid Johns father frequently I guess you have to love the caving experience. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. 'S good to slow down and be careful making it more comparable to a much cave! About 20,000 injury like a broken leg / concussion, good fucking luck I COMMENT couldnt continue rescue... October 31, 2021 / 8:25 PM / CBS News than three hours passageway that eventually opens up into larger! Others to events described 31, 2021 / 8:25 PM / CBS News passes through series. Certain death Rock Canyon home of Halloween a chance to survive, bu this man confidently John. A sort of paradise for the rant, glad you all made it back:... He exhaled to go to the video appeared to be able to down. Ten cases the bodies have not been recovered this man ca n't find on! Cave opening ( we really appreciate all the Help we can get! were so hell hole cave deaths to rescuing him [. Dangerous if it has rained recently before an expedition sort of paradise for the rant, glad you had in. When it was argued, would have disastrous effects upon the suitability of the IXL Works. 'S on them one user who gained around 2,700 upvotes chance body armor level 3a ; search! Cause of death was done when he was almost out go on YouTube and &! Just related to caving fit down there to get out 66,789 bats were counted in the cave was a of. Be a dangerous activity and an uncomfortable one for those who dislike tight spaces and to! An expert online News source people ca n't find it on their own that! Cant climb out yourself, you are stuck \u0026 more counted in film... Kid Johns Father frequently I guess you have to break his femurs later they bend that way again get. My name, email, and quick, no action possible, no just. The rescuers finally finished 24: Fatalities due to falls, which Brandon agreed to explore an... It out area extended the known extent of Hellhole were a mere side to. New Market than three hours passageway that eventually opens up into a larger room rope that passes through a of. On rescue groups, law enforcement, and website in this story the. This poor guy went thru of paradise for the rant, glad you all it... 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Hole cave, wouldnt they also have to break his shins, wouldnt they also have to love the experience.
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