She, like all of us, was/is a flawed person but not totally on the dark side. Dreath saidI agree with your comment about multiple angles. That makes Ms. Kasabian (as the key witness) a bit of pet project of mine. And if robbery or burglary had been the motive, there wouldn't have been any need to print the words in the victims' blood at the scene of both residences. I think if you agree with me that her story is not accurate your answer to this question will reveal the real Kasabian. Not because she was some kind of sunshine superwoman, but because others {TJ, Ella Jo, Brooks P, Juan Flynn} did likewise and some of those that she helped condemn to death in the gas chamber backed her up on this, both before her arrest and after. Charlie as well. Do I give weight to what anyone says after they were convicted: Not much. Leslie told Marvin Part there were to be 2 death squads. Anyone?Or..to paraphrase others: Life is going to knock you on your ass from time to time. But I do think that atmosphere at the time contributed to the events. Hell no, it wasn't even life in jail at the time, it was death in the gas chamber.Please offer some proof that this or something similar is the case. But1. Whether Linda engaged in any violence or had the ability to do so isn't the big question here. This marriage too did not prove to be stable and Linda Kasabian returned to stay with her mother in New Hampshire. Some people are just wired differently and motivated by different things. var part1 = "gw"; But kids were revered in the Family which made Tonya safer. Here is a fact: Krenwinkel never said the motive was Helter Skelter. I felt like Million dollar Mafiaoso Attorney as I pranced into the Lord's House for some good old American made justice.Thank You Clem: I won't tell ANYONE it's the clothes that make you judicially savvy. How does Linda represent the "Human" side of the Manson story?? Linda's daughter, aka "Lady Dangerous" was arrested for possession of a controlled substance (both rock and powder cocaine), and was sentenced to a year in state prison. The problem of course is that Bugliosi does not want that answer. My number was never called. Made me think. Dreath saidBut wait a minute Grim, Atkins never mentions this event to the Grand Jury, not a wordThere are a number of things that don't get mentioned to the Grand Jury but she mentions a few times the confusion that was afoot and let's face it, she wasn't a reporter on the scene taking in every little detail. I would have testified without a deal" translates when the evidence is revealed to 'I'm not talking even if the sky falls (but I will for immunity)"I thought that story was a pretty lame red herring and so without context. Leading the WitnessA leading question is one that either suggests the answer to the witness or provides words the witness can simple use to answer the question. Thank you, orwhut, for lightening the mood. A couple of days later, she escaped and later returned to her mothers home in New Hampshire along with her daughter. On the following day, Linda Kasabian once again drove a carload of killers around Los Angeles, finally dropping off Tex, Katie, and Leslie at the Labianca residence. document.write(part3 + ''); But Bugliosi's write up of it makes it sound like a sensational groundbreaking moment that was obvious to all.I was made to live in Nigeria at the age of 14 without being informed {I was on holiday}. She answered the question. Oh and I don't think the events are clear long before Jay Sebring is shot. Sure, I see all that but what are the statistics for us on this site related to those issues? After her sophomore year she dropped out to marry Robert Moses Peaslee. The idea of Charles Manson symbolizing evil is daft to me ~ even though I think he is guilty of what he was convicted for. And they all had a modicum of help. Post this, she moved in with her father who was working as a bartender in Miami. Even to this day, what makes HS so strong is that it kept on coming up. During her eighteen days testimony, she was under immense pressure. "HS in it's entirety, with all it's separate parts and attendant packages were clearly part of her thinking.Dreath saidI still thought I read something somewhere that Krenwinkel said it at a parole hearing or somethingIn her 2011 hearing, she said "When I went to the house with Tex (inaudible), I should have immediately left. On August 11, 1969, Manson instructed Linda to bring a message to the jailed Sandy Good, Mary Brunner, and Bobby Beausoleil. The more I've listened to people that were around and active in that period, the more I've watched and read, the more I can see that there was a wind blowing that caught many in it's slipstream and so many young people with similar upbringings had similar feelings and ended up in many different directions, some exciting and 'positive,' some not.Even some men that fought in Vietnam committed atrocities that they would never have perpetrated elsewhere or in any other situation; neither were there any clues in their upbringings as to some of these things happening. Some folk are just simply born under a bad sign, cursed with to much anger, desperation and bad judgement in their DNA. I personally think if you wrote the HS motive out of this Manson ends up exactly where he is. Who are these Black Muslims and what exactly is THEIR role in the Black and White race WAR ?2) Did Charles Manson have some kind of personal connection or understanding with the Black Muslims ?3) Were there any OTHER connections to Helter Skelter, besides the Beatles song of that same name ?4) What exactly was YOUR understanding - on August 9th and 10th 1969 - of WHY the TATE / LaBianca murders were taking place ? And Ruthann ended up turning out ok- even more of a reason phrases like "Dark to Light" apply- if you have to use them at all.I admit I am a little surprised people will defend Linda Kasabian so fiercely. I am in the class of 1965 picture as a matter of fact. Pat, in Guinn's book, presents herself as not wanting the murders to happen, going so far as to say that the following night at Waverley, before anthing happened with Rosemary, she prayed to God, asking him to make the murders stop and since she went ahead and exercised her own free will in participating in carnage and mutilation and God didn't strike her down and stop her, Leslie or Tex, she's not believed in God since that night.And she has a problem with Linda presenting herself as not being a willing participant.As a side issue, if Linda hadn't been at the car when they arrived at it after Cielo's action, would they have just driven off and left her ? Lots of Hippies were thought of as people that stole, didn't work, openly espoused drugs, were anti authority and anti establishment, sponged, dropped children all over the place and exposed their kids to things no child should even be aware of. Murder Cases of the Twentieth Century - Biographies and Bibliographies of 280 Convicted or Accused Killers, discrepancies between evidence and narrative, discrepancies between physical evidence and testimony, Manson Exposed A Reporter's 50 Year Journey into Madness and Murder, Manson Speaks: Inside the Mind of a Madman, MANSON The Live and Times of Charles Manson, movie review. There again, some of us have brothers, sisters, Dads, Mums, cousins, close friends etc that are in that vein and we still love them just the same and haven't yet abandoned them, though it may have been touch and go sometimes. She got lucky Atkins folded, leaving her the only game in town and she skated. I don't read her responding, "no, its ok I'll testify anyway". So WHY was Bugliosi and or the DA so obsessed with getting Charles Manson instead ? AKA: Linda Christian, Yana the Witch, Linda Chiochios. Note all the white faces. She was the angel in a group of murderous devils. Before goofball goes off on Hollywood did I hear her initially say 'she shouldn't have been there'?I'm inclined to not attach much credence to what Sandy says regarding the murders because she told Robert that she was probably the last to find out about them and didn't do so for a month, even though she claims she felt her group had done them and reportedly told Mary Brunner this. He said something to the effect that Charlie had a very strong case and that there was pretty much no evidence against him. Her new family, though, was already falling apart. After they are convicted they need to embrace the official narrative or they don't get outYet the reality is that Bobby Beausoleil, Pat Krenwinkel, Charles Watson, Bruce Davis, Susan Atkins and Leslie Van Houten have all subsequently deviated from the official record. Besides the motives of Manson's passion for violent death and his extreme anti-establishment state of mind, the evidence in this trial will show that there was a further motive for these murders." By his closing argument, he calls it the main and principle one ! It Gets Charlie off the hook. There was little to tie Charlie to the crimes. But I rereading my post above I do feel regret. One or the otherA young Sprite George Stimson and Sandy sit inches away from Bugs and Patti Tate and they all have a pretty good go at it as far as motive and other things :). Even with all the people that eventually formed part of the huge patchwork needed to make Manson's role make sense, without an Atkins, a Van Houten, a Krenwinkel, a Watson or a Kasabian, the case was so limp and that's why people would say to the prosecution things like "shame you had to be landed with such a bummer !". In 1996, along with her daughter, she was arrested for drugs and gun possession. [Bugliosi gives her the answer. Because there was no doubt that I knew that what was ever going to happen here was not going to be good. Dreath saidI think there is a tendency to look at Kasabian's involvement through the lens provided by what we know (or believe or have been told to believe ) from where we sit todayThere's a lot of truth in that. That gave me an insight that Bugliosi & Gentry's book doesn't even hint at, though it initially inspired it. Leslie Van Houten, 19, pleaded innocent to the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Leno LaBianca. It must be time for a break. Manson Mythos saidWhile the attorneys dropped the defense on the ground's they didn't want their clients to commit suicide, Fitzgerald at least voiced the opinion it would have been suicide for Manson as well, as it would have only proven Bugliosi's case rightWhere does he say that and how would it prove suicide for Charlie ? BUT Bugliosi said she (only she oddly) thought it was a creepy crawl mission. But if he did use Helter Skleter to motivate the others to do the crimes for him, and those who actually did the killing- thought they were doing it in the name of Helter Skleter.Which is the real motive? But in saying that, he'd never wanted Susan in the first place {"we don't give that gal anything !"}. Of course there could have been alternative possibilities. "It's a different world and it's not even the same ocean." She need only repeat his words. On August 8, 1969, Linda was selected to drive the killers to the Tate residence because she had the only valid driver's license. 'Now is the time for HS' only works if you have three parts: (1.) You can barely hear the dialogue and the transcript is full of "(Unintelligible)" and there are things she actually says that are not written in the transcript. As they say, truer words were never spoken. And I find it hard to believe that Bugliosi was so stupid as to not check either, knowing that his case would be seriously compromised if it came out that LK had no valid licence.Incidentally, it was Bugliosi and Bugliosi alone that speculated that the the only reason Linda was along both those nights was because she was the only one left with a valid driving licence, being that Mary was in the clink. There is no one inside. It can't be HS because that makes Charlie responsible. Just the ones with that certain type of character. He also said that what was needed was corroboration and that it didn't really matter who ended up as the star witness.It's true that he had little to no case against Leslie at that point, but Diane Lake changed that forever. But always focusing on credibility and reliability of a witness can lead to an assumption that if they aren't reliable, that they aren't telling the truth or if they can be shown to be not credible, that whatever they say shouldn't really be entertained. Do I mean the jury should disregard it? I also don't think it let's Manson 'off the hook'.Then again if Van Houten really wanted to cut holes in her shirt for her elf wings maybe a bottomless pit with a secret magical realm, living there for 100 years and growing to 144,000 souls was part of it. Farflung saidI'm kinda thinkn' there were plenty of precursors, gleefully ignored, or dismissedI think you're right. Blacks and whites died in roughly the same proportion as percentages in the general population. "I am here because I wanted to tell the truth. MY double talk is meant to show there are, at least, two sides to every person's STORY (especially Linda's) AND I don't hate ANYONE, except maybe MYSELF. Linda Darlene Drouin was born on 21 June 1949, in Biddeford, Maine, US as the eldest child of Rosaire Drouin and Joyce Taylor. March 1970 to Linda Kasabian, father unknown. Maybe the pity you have for Linda- who walked away free (That She blew it is her own fault)- would be better served to the people affected by what she helped do??? I am unclear what you mean by the 'got in Parent's car' issue. Strike 1! Uh oh, not being a 'motive guy' I best stay out of this. var part1 = "matt"; At least ONE Black man personally died in the jungles of Vietnam so HE could get a FREE Blow-Job.AND it will NOW likely come out that "joining a local police force" was the perfect safe-haven for those WHO only thought of themselves - FIRST.IF you actually take a peek behind the headlines - Oh what a different perspective you might find.Like Johnny MaCain, our GREASTEST surviving war HERO shot down from HIS airplane in Vietnam. She later became the prosecutions chief witness against Charles Manson and his followers after the 1969Tate-LaBianca murders. MM, Should I assume you don't believe Manson is innocent of any crime and are arguing motive and reasons testimony is weak, etc, a lot of which I probably agree with? )I don't see her as having a personality disorder, just a consistently lawless mindset, which doesn't invalidate her ability or sometime willingness to do what is right. Ask Van Houten. Add steady hard drugs and food deprivation= a group of absolute savagesDon't waste your tears for Linda and Leslie. After the bulk of her testifying, the judge was petitioned and he signed the papers.How does Linda represent the "Human" side of the Manson story?? Excellent work by Dreath here. Even Susan who, if Bobby and Tex are to be believed, never killed anyone by her hand, was involved in murder directly.Secondly, a trip to see the Straight Satans directly after leaving LaBianca could have destroyed the entire Helter Skelter cover storyYou have two interesting obsessions running side by side, that HS is a fiction and that the Straight Satans were somehow involved in all this.Bugliosi would want that covered up and it was easy for him to do soIn various guises, you've implied that Bugliosi was covering up something he knew to be true. How do we know she didn't take part in some act of violence?Lo' and be hold, Bugliosi had a perfect scenario to answer this very important question and yet, when one looks at where that apartment was, it seems like another kill two birds with one stone job. Just a thought.It brings me back to my favorite question about motive. To me it seems that whatever Pat and Tex thought they were killing people for- would be the motivation or motive for the crime by definition.Even if they realize they were duped later. That's hardly her doing. Let's save our sympathies only for those He deems good. I thought Lake Victoria was the source of denial, but it appears to be somewhere in New Hampshire.Mother Kasabian is one of those people who live in a vacuum, in some freaky parallel universe.Linda didn't make a binary change to 16 year old, dropout, and rogue's bride as characterized. It was done with no thought, " may offer a window into the confusion and their lack of planning and co~ordination. Her testimony eventually led to their conviction. [And Bugliosi leads a reluctant Kasabian to the answer he wants. Your Resource for the Tate-LaBianca (TLB) MurdersYesterday :: Today :: Tomorrow :: Where No Sense Makes Sense. Linda Darlene Kasabian, aka Yana the Witch, was born on June 21, 1949, in Biddeford, Maine, but she grew up in Milford, New Hampshire. I read it otherwise. Meanwhile, the ranch was raided and everyone was arrested on auto theft charges. You said Kreneinkle said it. Maybe they should have had Kasabian try on the smallest pair of genes. It Gets Charlie off the hookWhile getting Charlie off the hook may be paramount for "Charlie supporters" I've found piles more people who are not Charlie supporters, indeed, people who can't stand him or that think he's a shitbag and are quite happy for him to remain in or die in jail, that believe that HS is wrong.In fact, far more people think it's wrong than do, in my on line experience. They are inadmissible on direct examination because the answers are deemed unreliable. Why ?Lo' and be hold, Bugliosi had a perfect scenario to answer this very important questionYou make it sound like he made it up ! The general consensus seems to have been that it all happened very quickly.But what do I know ! That just may be Linda's story in a nutshell. Her parents divorced and remarried when Linda was still young. In fact, his case is better against her then Van Houten at that pointAccording to his book, nothing said in the grand jury could be used against Atkins and nothing she said could be used against her co defendants. She stole money from her friends to impress people she knew for days. He wasn't even charged with shooting Lotsapoppa, but we all know it happened..The question: what if she was ASKED?She wasn't asked, she was told. Kasabian saw it as an opportunity to flee the ranch (without Tanya). Matt saidAmazing that the defense lawyers never bothered to check on that tidbit during the months and months duration of the trialDuring the trial, she was asked a number of times about her licence. Her testimony in the Watson trial {can be found at Cielodrive.com} is a real eye opener and fills in some details that hadn't been readily available. Defense counsel were not 'the Dream Team'. She was granted full immunity from prosecution in exchange for 18 days of testimony. Sandy Good said that on a talk show she was on with George and Patti and I think Bugs might have been there too.Thanks though. I believe her when she says that she was not worried about Tonya's actually being in danger. Some things I read even suggested physical abuse. IF I was one of the defense attorneys, I would have asked Linda and most other Prosecution witnesses:1) I'm a little confused and maybe you can help us ALL understand this Helter Skelter business a little better. When really, the main reason most people hate them is that they represent a male patriarchy. Bill Kurtis can make it sound like the best name ever. Grim, I read Col Scott's piece when putting this together because I found something that led me there- might have been googling Fleischman. Dreath saidThat's what makes this incident get a 'don't make no sense' label from meIt made sense to me. How do you know it would have been a black service member? I am not convinced the motive as described by Bugliosi is 100% accurate. Her Other Children Bob Kasabian Her marriage later fell apart. Later, Kasabian contacted Linda and invited her to meet him in Los Angeles. I do agree that some things are unclear even prior to Sebring being shot {such as exactly when the women were told that murder was on the agenda that night and how long they had to process this info}. His case went like this:"Charles Manson sent out from the fires of hell at Spahn Ranch three heartless, bloodthirsty robots and--unfortunately for him--one human being, the hippie girl Linda Kasabian." What she said about Leslie was dynamite. Did YOU ever THINK "What was HE doing up there?" The argument was not made at the Manson et al trial. I don't care if he lived another two hundred years of apparent decency - the amount of evil that he generated in that August month was just to extreme to ever cut him any slack. ?Most definitely.Both were at different stages and had come through different experiences.However.there were also some similarities. Pat too- and their stories are all the same after all these years.I ask myself these things when telling myself it cant be H/S because everyone in TLB land says so.. St Circumstance saidGeorge and Schreck have spoken to all the people around the killersAnd yet are no more agreed on the motive. But this has always been subject to alteration, progression, sideways steps, change, being unwise, you know, life. She did drugs with her child and basically spent her whole life making sure that her child would have the most stressful and illegal life possible. yeah, let's all comply with Saint. not long after the events in question. It should also lead us directly to Charles Manson (a loving father to HIS Family and a Natural Born KILLER to many others.Like no other time in History, WE are discovering new facts concerning just what makes the Human Brain tick and hopefully it won't be much longer until WE finally understand exactly why human beings do the "terrible" things THEY do.AND of course, that understanding will eventually lead to a sense of awareness in humans paralleled in all of history. I know var part1 = `` gw '' ; but kids were in... Linda Chiochios and motivated by different things bill Kurtis can make it sound the. That I knew that what was ever going to happen here was not going to knock you on your from... 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